The Expert Podcast

We get a lot of questions about titles for vehicles that don't have a VIN number , or that have a serial number that's missing Sometimes it's altered especially on older vehicles where the serial number for the vehicle was actually attached to the engine . Not to the frame or to the firewall . And those cases if the serial numbers missing or there's some error what do you do about it ? We've even had conversations with clients where on some vehicles the serial number was attached to the firewall and to the fender . And they're two different numbers . So we're going to talk about vehicle identification numbers or VINs sometimes called a VIN number Although VIN number is really redundant because the end in van stands for number , but people say VIN number all the time . Three important to understand what goes into a VIN number because you may do something accidentally That could be a federal felony and we'll take a look at . Some of those rules . There was actually a very famous classic custom car builder in California . Who . remained on name but you can read news stories about it . Who was taking vehicles apart . Putting it back together . And as part of that was cutting out the VIN plate from the vehicle Sometimes it was on the firewall especially on cars from the fifties and sixties had a VIN plate on the firewall and this person would just cut out that little box and save it and then put it back on later Well technically . That was a crime that was a federal crime . And because of some other things that happened with this vehicle restoration business . The federal government department of justice came in and arrested this person for VIN tampering And we'll talk about that momentarily . So if you have a vehicle that there's any question about a vehicle identification number or VIN number . You want to make sure you understand what the laws are federal law laws and also your state laws because there may also be requirements to abide by both of them . First of all the VIN number is the legal identifier of a vehicle . If you have a vehicle with no VIN number you don't have a vehicle . You can't even start the title process yet until you have an established . VIN number or serial number If their car is older than , you know 1970s it might be called a serial number So . They don't give titles without VIN numbers You have to have a specific identifier for that vehicle . Without a valid VIN , the cars nothing It's not it's just a pile of parts . So if you have a vehicle where the VIN number is missing some of these old , you know 1920s . Fords . the VIN number was on the engine And if the engines out of it , do you have no VIN number same thing with some Harley Davidson's the VIN number is on the engine . And at the engines missing you have no VIN number . So you have to get a solid VIN number first before you can start trying to do title registration anything like that . Now it's important . Extremely important when you're dealing with VIN numbers So you don't just well I'll just make one out on a piece of metal or I'll cut one off another car and put it on my car Here's why . here's some of the United States department of justice . You know there's an old saying you don't mess with any government agencies with three letters in their name . FBI DEA DOJ . IRS . This is one of them . And this is from their statutes effective date motor vehicle identification numbers . United States code section 5, 11, 12 . more acting into law in 1984 . About mandatory passenger car identification numbers If there's a standard became effective
And it says that vehicles . VIN requirement expanded to multi passenger vehicles buses trailers , and it tells you what has to have a VIN number basically . Anything . That's a car on the road has to have event from the . Us department transportation . In 1980 . VIN characteristics were standardized meaning that they had to have 17 digits and each letter meant something The first digit means the way . it was manufactured One means you S the second digit is the brand like GE is general motors F is four So I'll tell you though would be maybe JT Japan Toyota . So once you have a VIN number you have to make sure that you're not messing around with them because . Falsification or removal of any VIN . Is a federal crime under us code five 11 That's all you need to know . If you falsify or remove a VIN from a vehicle that's a federal crime . And a motor vehicle which have had their . VIN falsified are removed are subject to seizure and forfeiture Persons trafficking and motor vehicles with . VIN numbers falsified to remove are subject to prosecution . It's real simple This last paragraph tells you everything you need to know . So if you have a car . Or truck or whatever it is , and it's in your . and you're doing a full restoration on it . And for whatever reason you take off that VIN plate . Because you want to maybe sandblast a firewall Or you want to , switch it to another vehicle Technically we're not attorneys not giving you legal advice , but from what we see in the law and from what we've seen . Legal cases . People being prosecuted , you're violating the law . According to what the DOJ says . Now that does not mean that the minute you take off that VIN plate the SWAT team's going to swoop in and pick you up . That's not how it works . But if for whatever reason there's some suspicion around that vehicle maybe you're at a car show . And there's an inspector walking around looking at cars . Maybe your car gets pulled over You get impounded because your plates are expired Maybe you get in an accident . Maybe there's some registration you file and the VIN number has some conflict on it . If they start looking at it and see that that VIN number has been moved around changed around . You're subject to these laws
And you want to be aware of that because they take it pretty seriously . In fact , VIN plates on most cars , newer cars have very special rivets tamper-proof rivets that attach that metal plate To the car . And if they see that those rivets or screws are different , they're going to raise a red flag again
Law enforcement has many more important things to be worried about then the VIN number on your car . But if you're playing around with a car . You don't want to accidentally do something that makes it subject to seizure . And forfeiture . Right You want to keep your car ? So if you're going to do something different with the VIN make sure you do it the right way . Every state has a legal process . If you do need to change the location of the van or do something with it of how you go about doing that You have to document it . What they're trying to avoid is you . Steal a car
You take off the old VIN plate and put it in play down from a clean car They're just trying to . keep that from happening . And you might say well I'm an old car What does it matter Will you tell me ? Right . You find a Hemi CUDA that goes through Barrow Jackson for $300,000 and you steal it . And you scrape off the VIN plate and put one on from a junk yard car . Now you have a free $200,000 car . Right . So obviously there's more to it than that I get it . It wouldn't have the same provenance and the same model and the same , you know VIN code . But the point is that they don't want you to be switching VINs cause the VIN is the car . Has to be attached a certain way . So if you're working on a car and it's missing a VIN number before you start swapping VINs around or going to a junk yard and buying one be aware that technically that's not allowed , it might think it's allowed but it's not . Now there is a process for having a new serial number VIN number assigned . If your car doesn't have one . And this works for kit cars , assembled vehicles damaged vehicles . Even if you have a car that's one of these parts only cars that comes out of Copart . You may be able to convert it to a kid car and every state has a process for it And we'll take a look at one briefly . You know you go through this process for application for assigned vehicle identification number . This happens to be . From . From Virginia And you have to have a reason for the application Let's do this zoom this in a little bit , especially He constructed vehicle reconstruct a vehicle replica vehicle . you need the VIN verification homemade trailer . And You go through this process to require to install the VIN plate only . As in a matter of described . They're going to give you the VIN plate You can't make your own VIN plate You can't . You know go to a metal shop and stamp it out Here's why that's important . If you go on Etsy or some of these websites E-bay right now . You will find people selling fake VIN number plates
Maybe they don't know that what they're doing is a felony . Maybe you don't know . that buying ones is a problem . You don't want to find that out the hard way So don't be buying . fake VIN plates . From the internet . The only VIN plate that's valid is one that comes from the factory or one that the government gives you . And they'll give you an assigned VIN plate with special rivets It says right here special rivets . Now most states require that the government installs the VIN plate . Virgin Virginia allows you to do it . If it's a trailer Okay And you have to use this template and use their special rivets
And start one special rivet into each hole hammer each rivet until the pin is even with the Riverhead , because they want to make sure you're not using this to improperly own a vehicle . And they also do this because of the federal law . Every state's a little different . But most of them require that either they install it or they look at it after you install it . And they're going to inspect the vehicle . So the takeaway is if you're at all , about the legitimacy of the VIN number on your vehicle Do not pass Go do not collect $200 Don't do anything until you have the actual VIN number verified . Make sure you're using the right one If there's more than one on the vehicle
You want to know which one you should be using ? If one of them is parts only or salvage you want to use the one that's clean . And have the government determined . And that for you , you might say I don't want to deal with the government Well that's fine But that your vehicle is now at risk Again don't mess around with VIN numbers The government takes it very seriously . You probably , if you switched it around no one's going to know the minute you do it but at some point down the road there could be a problem There are many many people that are in jail right now because of VIN number tampering . And usually . That problem Wasn't the main thing that got him caught Usually it started with something else Maybe they had a vehicle that was . Had performance parts and it was jacked up or had a big blower sticking through the hood or had some . of exhaust system that was too loud and they get pulled over and then they start getting inspected They start looking at where's your VIN number What is your registration ? And that it leads to a domino effect of a problem , or maybe you got a moving violation . And because of the fact that . The police officer is suspicious of your vehicle because it looks different Maybe it's a performance car . They're going to start looking at it There are many news stories You find them online of motor vehicle inspectors going to car shows . Making sure First first of all vehicles are not illegally modified . They're safe for the road They don't have racing slicks on the back . They don't have illegal exhaust systems . they don't have a mission systems that are removed . On years that are required . And they're looking at VIN numbers because they know this is what people do . So be aware of it do it the right way Make sure your vehicles , Bulletproof You're not gonna get , you're not gonna be at risk of losing it . And do that first and then start worrying about your title .